Self-Care Isn't Just a Trend with Pam Rothman, LPC

In this episode, we're going deep with therapist and hardcore feminist Pam Rothman, LPC. Pam shares her journey from crappy boundaries to being a boundary-setting pro, all while tackling burnout and prioritizing self-care. 

We chat about why saying no is the ultimate power move and how societal expectations mess with our mental health. Whether you're overwhelmed, burnt out, or just need some practical advice on setting boundaries, this episode's got you covered. 

Check out the detailed show notes (https://tarakermiet.com/podcast/) and leave your thoughts or questions about today's topic.   

To connect with Pam on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pamrothmanlpc/

00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:41 Meet Pam: Trauma and Eating Disorders Therapist
01:42 Icebreaker: What Are You Loving Right Now?
03:24 Pam's Journey with Boundaries and Burnout
05:19 The Importance of Boundaries
07:51 Reframing Boundaries and Overcoming Guilt
09:46 Societal Expectations and Women's Health
16:21 Self-Care and Rebuilding Capacity
19:17 Saying No and Setting Boundaries
24:47 Balancing Life and Being a Badass
28:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Need a little more balance and a lot more badass in your life? Check out my 1:1 coaching sessions designed to help you tackle your biggest challenges, manage stress, and create a personalized plan for success. Your first 30-minute session is free! Visit tarakermiet.com to get started. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Welcome
• 1:27 Meet Pam: Trauma and Eating Disorders Therapist
• 2:28 Icebreaker: What Are You Loving Right Now?
• 4:10 Pam's Journey with Boundaries and Burnout
• 6:05 The Importance of Boundaries
• 8:37 Reframing Boundaries and Overcoming Guilt
• 10:32 Societal Expectations and Women's Health
• 17:51 Self-Care and Rebuilding Capacity
• 20:47 Saying No and Setting Boundaries
• 26:17 Balancing Life and Being a Badass
• 30:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Pam: [00:00:00] Okay.

Tara: All right, friends, welcome back to the balance badass podcast. I'm excited to be here with you all today. And I really just want to talk about really quick, you know, what's really wild for most of us is that that really stands between us

Pam: Okay.

Tara: I am just so excited because we've got Pam with us here today, and she is a trauma and eating disorders therapist who's all about empowering people to reclaim their mental health, and she's also a hardcore feminist passionate about making real meaningful change in how we approach [00:01:00] burnout, how we approach Boundaries and women's health. So I'm personally very excited for this conversation. And I know many of you all are going to get a lot out of it. So I just want to jump right into it and just welcome Pam to the balance. Badass podcast.

Pam: so much for having me. Okay. I am so excited.

Tara: For the listeners, right before we hopped on and started recording, we were chatting about our fur kids and how both of us like to collect pets. And as my listeners know, my five dogs tend to make their presence known in some way, shape or form, usually at least once during an episode.

So just stay tuned for that in case that does happen friends. So. Before we jump into the meat of our conversation, Pam, I did want to start with an icebreaker question that I ask all of my podcast guests, because I just love this question. And that is, what is something that you're loving in your life right now?

Pam: Ooh, 20, 25 is not [00:02:00] off to a good start. So

Tara: mean, fair.

Pam: one, right? Uh, well, you know, as you said earlier, we love our fur babies and I really love mine, they bring me such joy. You know, like, I'm really loving, I'm really loving them, the comfort that they bring me during these really, really rough times.

Tara: Yes, I agree. Anytime I'm like having a really rough time, with like the political landscape going on and all that jazz, um, I like to grab one, really my old lady. Cause she doesn't know anything else that is going on. And I just snuggle with her. And I feel like at least like my central nervous system kind of gets back to normal a little bit for a

Pam: There's

Tara: while.

Pam: research to that. Absolutely. I am here for it.

Tara: Yeah. So, well, awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I really like to start with that question because I think, I [00:03:00] mean, to your point, like it's very easy to get bogged down with all of the heavy stuff that's surrounding us, whether that's environmentally. Within our context, within our personal lives, professional lives, whatever. Um, and so I like to try to shift focus, even if it's just for a short little bit of time, um, to really think about what's going well in our lives. So appreciate that. And I really just want to start off our conversation with your story. So what has. Been your personal experience with burnout, maybe how has it shaped the way that you approach boundaries and mental health today and thinking about kind of the line of work that you do as well.

Pam: I talk often about boundaries. I'm so passionate about them, and I often say that if you have quality boundaries now, it means that you have [00:04:00] really awful ones. Because no one is born with these, like, these amazing, solid boundaries,

Tara: Right?

Pam: you know, it's, it's, it's learned, right? And so, I had awful ones, they were terrible, and especially in the field that I'm in, this is my second career.

So, having, going into this field, you know, I say later in life, but I mean, you know, I'm not that. My thirties, but even still, it was shocked to the system. I worked in inpatient, uh, people on Medicaid. So community mental health, how, how do I establish boundaries with? With the, with people who needed it the most, it was really hard.

I had to figure it out myself. Um, but also personally too,

Tara: Mm-hmm

Pam: I was really lucky in that. I, when starting my own boundary work. [00:05:00] At work, it bled over into my personal life. Really, really lucky because I work with a lot of people in caring fields or helping fields where they're great at work and can't really struggle in their personal life.

You know, I, I think for most people, boundaries, again, it's learned and if you don't have a good system where you learn from, which I don't think many people do. It sets this system. So, I was going through life, friendships, relationships, jobs. My boundaries sucked. And I think also for women or assigned female at birth, we're told, and especially when you're young to write out, if you go to college, then it's right out of college or right out of high school, you can't say, no, [00:06:00] that's such a big one, you have got to say yes.

The boss says, ask to got to say yes.

Tara: I know it's ridiculous too, because it's such a double standard because folks it's fine for them to say no, but they're expecting the yes.

Pam: it's almost respected,

Tara: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Pam: almost respected. Yeah.

Tara: I mean, it just goes to show the varying standards that exist for a lot of things in our society. Um, Yeah, I think interested me or what kind of sparked my brain when you were talking about just how the, the kind of bleeding over. So like the.

Pam: Yeah. [00:07:00] Yeah,

Tara: Like for me, it was actually the opposite. So like I. Was really good at personal boundaries, at least with like maybe 2nd to 3rd degree folks, like probably immediate family boundaries a little different for me.

Yeah,

Pam: are the hardest ones. Setting boundaries with family is the hardest one, I think, for the majority of people. But yeah, setting boundaries with like, neighbors, or maybe acquaintances, or people who aren't, are not super close. Absolutely.

Tara: another thing that I learned to or that through reading and practicing and. Which I agree with you, like it's not, it's a learned skill. It's not something we're born with, with this boundary setting stuff.

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: another thing that really helped me was reframing how I saw the boundary. I talk about this a lot too, is that the boundary is not, has not nothing to do with the other person or the other [00:08:00] environment, but my boundary is About how I'm reacting to that.

Pam: Yes.

Tara: So, yes, they are involved and they're in, in the equation. But that helped me at least release some of that people pleasing, some of that guilt that I felt because it wasn't, I wasn't seeing this as me putting it on someone else. I was seeing it as me taking responsibility for

Pam: Right.

Tara: was going to respond.

Um,

Pam: point about the guilt. when people start talking about, I include myself in that too. When, but the guilt, the guilt I have. Okay. Sometimes that decreases and sometimes it doesn't.

Do it anyway. 

Tara: well, and honestly, I think when you're experiencing that guilt, that gives you an opportunity to explore that a little bit more to see that guilt kind of coming from, where's the root of that guilt stemming from so that you [00:09:00] can explore that, address it if you want to address it,

Pam: right.

Tara: folks that may say, okay, I feel guilty and I know where it's coming from and I'm just going to, Accept it and move on.

Pam: And who taught you that?

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one thing that I talk a lot about is like, where do our convictions come from? Where do our values come from? And like, what are these things to you versus what have been fed into you?

Pam: A lot of it is external.

Tara: Oh yeah.

Pam: I blame society for everything.

Tara: Well, sometimes it's pretty accurate

Pam: You know, I mean, that's not really, but a lot of it is those societal expectations.

Tara: And kind of thinking about that too, like, especially with your work that you do. With women as a feminist and we know, and you brought up like women, we're so often conditioned [00:10:00] to yes, to be the one that takes care of others before we even think about who the heck we are and what we need

Pam: gross.

Tara: to the point that we like can really damage our souls essentially in our spirit.

Pam: Yeah. Silence. Where do I start with that one? Because I have a million thoughts. As you can see,

Tara: rip.

Pam: I'm a book nerd, and it wasn't on purpose that I set up here. It's just the best light, right? Um,

Tara: Mm.

Pam: Into any, honestly, any conversation I have. I'm a big research person, uh, and that includes the books that I read, too. Nonfiction is, is my, is my jam. [00:11:00] So, um, so the one part that you, that you asked me about was, um, you know, implementing how, how this conditioning affects us, right?

There's now research about all of that anger and trauma and And repressing all of this and what that does to our physical health and that's why women or assigned female birth have more autoimmune diseases. Then men, right? Or more than ever, there's research behind that. And so I like to kind of go that way of like, here's some studies, here's some research.

Think about that, right? Because I think mental health stigma is still, is still alive and well.

Tara: Mm hmm.

Pam: But when we focus on the physical health, [00:12:00] that scares people, I think, more than, more than anything else. So I kind of go with that first. Um, what was the other question?

Tara: Well, it's just like, how do you help your clients reframe their mindset to be able to prioritize themselves and their mental health and overall wellbeing?

Pam: I talk about where they fall on the list.

Tara: Hmm.

Pam: are they at on their list? Do they even make the list? Are they even on it? 

Tara: that's heavy because would imagine just from a total guess that to do that as an activity, like, let's say we put a bunch of

Pam: I have to

Tara: I get.

Pam: say it is

Tara: yeah,

Pam: tears. Tears. Anger, frustration, absolutely, yeah, so many people, and especially for parents, and this goes for, for the dudes too, you [00:13:00] know, um, But yeah, seeing where they fall, and sometimes not, the other people who are on it are these, Inconsequent, like who are they? Who's that? Who, what?

Why is your boss on there? What, like, before you? Why are all these other people before you? And the age old analogy, you can't, you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. Before you help other like that's a real thing and yet here you are going through life Oh, I have to put these 20 people on and maybe maybe I make them up like we have a legal pad You're not even on are you kidding me?

Fuck out of here

Tara: I wonder too, how, how many folks would even put like non people things like

Pam: Oh

Tara: or,

Pam: Right.

Tara: like

Pam: I [00:14:00] like

Tara: or,

Pam: to do people because then really see it. Could you imagine if I put other? Get out of here That makes me want to pass out.

Tara: I think very necessary because

Pam: Mm hmm. Mm

Tara: we're not aware of what we're not aware. So if we're not. If we're just coasting through life,

Pam: hmm.

Tara: not even thinking about ourselves, naturally putting ourselves at the bottom of the list or off the list or

Pam: Not even

Tara: someone else's list, who knows, then if you're like, right, like the damage that that's doing as it builds

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: before you even come to the realization.

So I love that that's like something intentionally that you do because.

Pam: Mm hmm.

Tara: You've got to have awareness to it before, before you can address the dang thing. Yeah.

Pam: Absolutely. [00:15:00] Yeah. It's really It's really upsetting. Doing that kind of activity. You know, I To think like, wait a second. I don't even I don't even fit in. I don't even make my own life. What? That's depressing.

Tara: That is very depressing and it makes sense why of us are in therapy

Pam: Yeah, now. Yeah.

Tara: or why most of us need therapy, even if you're not in therapy. Well, let's talk a little bit about kind of some of the work that you do with. going through like very tough experiences, everybody has something challenging that they have to go through. And so I'm really that you can inspire us in some way, but thinking about like, what's one piece of advice that you'd give to someone who just feels like [00:16:00] they're completely drained, they. Have reached their limit. They're at their

Pam: Capacity.

Tara: point.

Pam: I talk about capacity a lot.

Tara: Yeah. And like, how do they even start to rebuild? How do they start to

Pam: Hmm.

Tara: climb their way out of the pit, if you will?

Pam: The imagery is important there.

Tara: Mm hmm.

Pam: I ask about self care a lot. And I think self care has become this, like, wellness trend. And that is not where it originally stemmed from. You know, like, you know, and it's, it's cute if you're into bubble baths or getting your nails done or whatever. Cause that is, you know, you're taking time. Um, and that's great, but what would it look like to take 10 minutes out of your day to really sit

What does self first, so defining [00:17:00] what self care looks like What's going to work here?

What's your idea of self care? What does that look like for you? What does taking care of yourself look like? Ten minutes, I'm asking. If you go more than that, awesome! Don't have to. Start at the bare minimum. 

Tara: That's what I always say too. Like with habit building, I always use the example. let's say you want to go to the gym, your first goal should just be driving to the gym. And getting to the parking lot, going in for five minutes, build up on that. So like the 10 minute self care

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: up on that, like it doesn't have to be this huge overwhelming thing.

Because I think the issue with self care too, and you bring up a good point about it being like this trendy thing now,

Pam: Mm hmm.

Tara: is that we haven't taken the time to really think about. What do we need now? What do we need in different seasons of our life and different, [00:18:00] like, different moments of our life?

Like, throughout the day, my self care looks very different from what I need in the morning to night, depending on what I've experienced.

Pam: Sure, right.

Tara: we need, like, a menu of options. To

Pam: Yeah, and so that's another thing that I also suggest. We have our phones with us at all times. Keep a list in your phone, because in those moments where you're like, I really, okay, I have the time. I want to do something. What works for me? The one that, you know, so you have that list. Okay. Maybe this one.

No. Okay. And you go through. This one is doable. I have the time for this. I want to spend this time and this seems okay.

Tara: So here's a question for you. of maybe exploring that list a little bit more too, when folks realize. They're not on the list or at the bottom.

Pam: hmm. [00:19:00] Okay.

Tara: way up on the list? Like what are some strategies that may be helpful for folks that may want to do this on their own too?

Pam: That's such a tough one because it really depends on who's getting in the way. I'm a big fan of saying no.

People are fearful of saying no.

Tara: my

Pam: the,

Tara: word.

Pam: right? Oh my god. They are four letters. Um, yeah, I don't. It scares people. And so I think that's, that's something to look into and talk about and where that comes from. So looking more into that and what the fear is, because it's oftentimes there it's the work related stuff that I think can be.

Okay, let's push this to the side, right? Um, we're practicing starting to say [00:20:00] no, maybe with others. So what does that look like? What is it? What's and, and starting small, it's like, okay, if this, some, something bothers you or what would it look like to have a little bit of a conversation?

I get this a lot of, um, I hate confrontation, which that hurts my whole heart because I love confrontation. It's like my favorite thing, but it's also just a different way of communicating. So then you're basically saying, I don't like communication. That doesn't make sense to me. Like, what do you mean by that?

Like, what do you Because I think confrontation, it's this idea of like, you're screaming at each other, and that's not it. It's assertive communication. So, starting to do these simple Well, I know they're not simple, but it gets to be simple. And then that way, you can start to maybe Okay, does this person really need to be [00:21:00] in front of me,

Tara: I remember very much the first time said no to like a social engagement. That was my first like really practice round of saying no, because I'm very much an introverted personality. So like when I take the Myers Briggs, like I, it's supposed to be a spectrum. I am not. I'm 100 percent introverted

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: time I have taken it.

Pam: But, but I think the first one is interesting. The, the introversion, extroversion. That's the one I can get down with. Sure. Oh,

Tara: so I do prefer one on one time. kind of stuff, like in depth

Pam: so this is your jam right here.

Tara: Oh yeah girl,

Pam: Oh my god, yeah.

Tara: don't ask me to go to a networking event because I want to

Pam: Dream. Dream scenario. Completely extroverted.

Tara: Good for you. We

Pam: But,

Tara: like you.

Pam: here's the thing, I didn't realize that until like, two years ago. I thought I was like an [00:22:00] introverted extrovert, or extroverted intro No. Duh. Anyway, so much for self awareness, but

Tara: we're always learning and growing, aren't we?

Pam: yeah, isn't that the, isn't that the truth? But yeah.

Tara: the first time, so I like, I would always say yes to everything.

Pam: Mm hmm.

Tara: dreaded going or

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: it was going to drain me. And I very much remember the first time I said no, like I was sweating. I

Pam: God, right.

Tara: a physical response to it,

Pam: Grow up.

Tara: very much remember afterwards, the feeling of just rightness, I guess.

Like, I just felt like I made the right decision.

Pam: Right. For you. Absolutely.

Tara: And that is what I remember every time I do it now is like.

Pam: Without saying sorry.

Tara: Oh,

Pam: Without explaining yourself.

Tara: over explain. That's the one [00:23:00] thing I always push. Like,

Pam: Yes.

Tara: needs to know why you're saying no,

Pam: Absolutely. Mm

Tara: you can give them a courtesy little, like,

Pam: hmm.

Tara: no, I'm good.

Or I'm at capacity. And that's all you have to say. You don't have to say what you have going on. They don't

Pam: Right.

Tara: your business.

Pam: Absolutely. I think what's hard for me being extroverted is that I have some physical ailments. So it's like, I really want to go, but I have to see how I'm feeling.

Tara: Oh, yeah,

Pam: Sometimes it could be last minute and I, you know, the illness and the chronic pain that goes on, I'm down for the count and it sucks. I don't want to be a baler.

Cause I know. I don't like when that happens to me, but now I, you know, but, and some people don't get it. Keep going, sorry.

Tara: Well, I was just going to say, like, some people don't get it, but the right people will understand

Pam: do.

Tara: and.

Pam: [00:24:00] Yeah,

Tara: you're, you're taking care of yourself

Pam: right. Yeah.

Tara: you need to.

Pam: It's an interesting, it's an interesting situation that, that goes on. And I, you know, I talk a lot about that with people who are like, You know, now dealing with chronic illness or chronic pain where it's like, can't do it or I can't make the thing or the, you know, it's like, I understand, but be now the shoes on the other foot.

And it's me. Um, so being extroverted or having extroverted friends, it's like, no, even though I want to, it's new territory for me. Um, and some people don't get it and they'll give me shit. I'm just like, Oh, excuse you. No, 

Tara: Well, I know I want to respect our time and I still have one more question for you that I am excited to hear your perspective on. So as you know, podcast is the Balance [00:25:00] Badass Podcast. So we are all about Balanced living with badass results around here. So I'm curious from your perspective, how do you define being a balanced badass in your own life?

Pam: Oh, that, you know, I'm very lucky in that I have a really solid work life balance. Um, and, Again, like saying no to stuff, but when I want to not because of, you know, struggling or anything like that, but, and also taking the time for me, um, work is challenging. Um, and I now work from home, so it's not like I, uh, Have the commute and then I'm able to, yeah.

So what's been different is like, I closed the laptop and I'm done,

Tara: Mm hmm.

Pam: you know, so that's been, that's been helpful. Also, you know, we live in such a hustle, hustle [00:26:00] culture, no, rest is productive, and I need it, I need that, uh, and I won't apologize for it, uh, I've been doing that since my 20s, if I have a day, you know, I called it, well I used to call it a day off from life.

And I love that. I don't know why more people don't do it.

Tara: I know I love my favorite days are my couch routing days where I just sit on the couch and

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: literally I may be watching the same TV show I've seen 100, 000 times,

Pam: Yeah. No, it's great.

Tara: so I can kind of like zone out and

Pam: Absolutely. It's like, okay, I have chores to do. I have stuff to do, but I have a list and I'll get that done. And I'm not going to stress about it. I'm not going to worry about it because the thing is there will always be things to do, but I know what I need to do for me. So I'm at the top of that list and that's not going to change.

Tara: And I love that the [00:27:00] unapologetic nature of that is so empowering for your internal self. But I think for anyone else that. you, sees that and like, absolutely that speaks to them too. So awesome. Love it. Well, Pam, thank you so much for just your whole authentic self to the

Pam: I can't be any other way. Truly.

Tara: That's the best way to be. So I,

Pam: so much for having me. This is awesome.

Tara: I really do appreciate it, especially because, you know, the conversation around boundaries, it can feel like it's just a

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: hot mess of a thing to do, but

Pam: It's very trendy right now too. So people are like, well, okay, well, I know I need to work on boundaries. How do I do that? When, what's my first step? What do you mean?

Tara: So I think even just like the list is a great kind of action step that someone can take just to start [00:28:00] the ball rolling on setting their own boundaries and thinking about whether they need and where do they fall in their life, if they

Pam: Yeah.

Tara: fall in their life, like you said,

Pam: Right. Yeah. That's a

Tara: do want you to think about maybe one boundary that you've been avoiding, maybe one no that you haven't to say, and

Pam: big one. I'm going to go ahead and start the video. So, uh, very much.

Tara: And Pam, if folks wanted to connect with you to learn a little bit more about your work, just get in touch with you. Where can they find more information to stay in touch?

Pam: Uh, I am on Instagram. I rarely post on it, but I do post a [00:29:00] lot of stories that are helpful, um, for trauma and disordered eating and boundary stuff and that kind of thing. I will eventually keep up with it, but until then. So it's Pam Rothman, LPC. Okay.

Tara: And I'll add that link to the show notes. And just as a reminder, folks, be sure to like, share this episode. You know, send us a DM, um, subscribe to the podcast, everything that you can do to help spread the word about the balance badass podcast, but also to just share these gems to your network and your circle. I hope that you'll take care of yourself and just remember that balance doesn't happen by accident, friends. You have to put yourself first, you have to put yourself on the list. So it's something that you need to intentionally work on every single day. I'll see y'all back here soon.