Values-Based Recovery vs. the Burnout Hustle with Lisa Shubin

What happens when the wellness coach burns out? Lisa Shubin knows.

She built a career helping people inside corporate and healthcare systems take care of themselves, then had to figure out how to take her own advice. In this episode, we talk about the gap between how organizations talk about wellness and how work actually gets done, the signals your body sends before a breakdown, and how her Ignite framework helps people build sustainable recovery rooted in values instead of hustle.

I’ve been looking forward to this one because Lisa is someone I’ve had the chance to work with through coaching, and her perspective on burnout is shaped by real experience on both sides. This one’s full of honest, practical wisdom.

VIA Character Strengths Assessment (https://www.viacharacter.org/)

To connect with Lisa:

• Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/lisa_priorityselfcoach/)
• Website (https://priorityself.com/)

Need a little more balance and a lot more badass in your life? Check out my 1:1 coaching sessions designed to help you tackle your biggest challenges, manage stress, and create a personalized plan for success. Your first 30-minute session is free! Visit tarakermiet.com to get started. 

Transcript

Tara: [00:00:00] Hey friends. Welcome back. Today's conversation is with Lisa, and I have been really looking forward to this one. Lisa is a national board certified health and wellness coach with a background in kinesiology and more than a decade of experience designing and leading wellbeing strategies inside healthcare and corporate systems. Now she's lived on both sides of this work. So she is su supported others through recovery and resilience, while also having to navigate her own burnout inside demanding systems. And that experience is what led her to found. Priority self and to develop her Ignite framework, which helps build sustainable wellbeing, rooted in values. also someone that I've had the chance and pleasure to work with through coaching, which adds just another layer of depth to this conversation that I really value. So without further ado, I wanna get right into it. And welcome to the show, [00:01:00] Lisa.

Lisa: Thank you so much, Tara. I am such a big fan of yours, so I need to just like say that.

Tara: Oh, thanks.

Lisa: Um, I'm so glad you, um, for all of your posts and, uh, I found you on LinkedIn and, um, as we get to our, this, this podcast, you know, I just wanna. Make sure everyone knows that, you know, it could feel like a lonely space, but, uh, people like Tara and myself, um, are here to help, um, you know, grow the supportive community.

So I'm really excited to be here.

Tara: Well, thank you so much for your kind words. It means a lot, and I love being able to connect both in the work but also outside of the work and. Take kind of what we talked about during your session and, and seeing it come to fruition, which is really exciting. So that's fun for me. But I wanna get started with my favorite icebreaker question, and that is, what's something that you're loving in your life right now?

Lisa: [00:02:00] That's a great question. Um, and I think right now I am really loving, stepping into my strengths right now. Um, you know, I've, I've. I've taken a couple of big leaps in my career and in my life, and it could be really scary, but, uh, you know, I know I can really lean into my strengths. Uh, you know, I've launched Priority Self and Priority Self is a, an idea that I had in 2016, and I wrote it down in a piece of paper and, um, I saw have the piece of paper.

Uh, and so it's just a really, uh, I'm loving the process of just stepping into my dreams and, and goals right now.

Tara: That's awesome. I love hearing that and it's, it's really kind of cool to see, I think just from my own experience, like something that was just a little seedling of an idea. Finally start to grow into [00:03:00] something and you need really is the right environment, the right time, the right. Mindset, all that jazz, to be able to really make it and bring it to life.

And I just love hearing that and you feel like you're tapping into those strengths and being able to utilize them. 'cause I know that that can be a lot of. Challenging pieces to figuring out kind of what's the next step? Like, how do I make sure that this is aligned with what I want? And especially for folks listening that are in the midst of burnout, a lot of times we lose sight of our strengths too.

So I'm glad to hear that that's you just so much joy right now, and that makes my heart happy. So thank you for sharing.

Lisa: Sure.

Tara: Well, I wanna start Lisa, with your body of work, eh, quite literally. So you have spent years watching what [00:04:00] happens when people are. Pushing past their limits. And so I'm curious from what you've learned and um, just from your body of knowledge, like what's something about burnout or health breakdown that people still wildly underestimate until they're smack dab in the middle of it?

Lisa: It's a great question. Um. Just for your listeners and, you know, I started my body of work in cardiac rehab as an exercise physiologist. And while I was, you know, taking blood pressures while people on, were on treadmills and making exercise programs for those who just had heart surgery or, you know, pacemaker put in, um.

I got to know the patients, and quite a few of them were, we didn't have the word burnout back then. I don't wanna age myself, [00:05:00] but, um, it looked like stress. It looked like, um, you know, unmanaged stress and pushing through and, you know, there was, I, I was able to, um, support the health and wellbeing of, uh, business leaders.

CEOs, uh, really high achieving people who were, you know, somewhere between 55 and 70 right in there. And I really got to know that population very well and their back stories of work. And so flash forward, you know, when it, it just looks so different today. Today we have the word burnout. We know a little bit more about it.

And I think what is underestimated is how much support it actually takes to move through. Um, you can't do it on your own, or that's, that is definitely my opinion. Um, and it's [00:06:00] how, how, uh, important it is to really reach out to those who can help. You are equipped to help you work through this and, uh, it's important to be open to understanding your body and your mind and how you best function.

I like to call it self-knowledge. It's not enough to just know your strengths and know your values, but what are your tendencies? What are your, what are your buttons? What, what do you know you will always say yes to, even though you know it's at the. Detriment of your health and wellbeing or self care. So, um, I think you can underestimate how much support you're going to need.

So I'm a big advocate of surrounding yourself with, um, multiple people. Whether it's your doctor, your coach, it could be anyone that is, cares about you as a person, someone in your life, um, to help you check [00:07:00] in and make sure that you are taking steps forward.

Tara: Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up. 'cause I really do think that your support system is so important and even when I'm talking with clients. I love when clients kind of self disclose that they're seeing a therapist or a nutritionist or with their doctor about these things, because I'm like, yes, please talk to everyone and anyone that you can because it takes. full collective support squad, as I like to call it, to support you through this and to get you on the other side feeling better. And that's another thing, like I really try to target, like I am not an expert in wellbeing as far as like wellness and those kind of things. I know the basics. I know enough to know that that needs to be squared away before we can make any big time decisions. I'm gonna also. Refer you out to someone like you [00:08:00] that knows a little bit more and has the expertise in that area. Because it is so important to have that support network and it's so hard to find it. brought it up like you can feel so alone in this mess that we find ourselves in. And I know at least when I was like going through burnout, I felt like. I was the only one experiencing it. Like there, everyone else seemed to be doing fine. Something must've been wrong with me, I couldn't figure it out. So I'll, I'm definitely not gonna mention it to anybody because then I don't wanna like out myself that I'm not handling it okay. But as soon as I actually asked for help, that's when things started kicking up momentum and being able to kind of recover and to where I needed to be to make my next step and make my next move.

So I'm really glad that you brought that up.

Lisa: Yeah. Tara, thank you for giving it that space. I think it's, it's underestimated and it's one of the hardest steps, [00:09:00] especially if you're a person who doesn't like to ask for help for whatever reason. Um, but I also wanna say, you know, when people push through burnout, it, I, I wanna say it comes from a good place.

I've worked with healthcare providers that are just pushing through on the floors, seeing patient after patient, and every, it's all coming from a good place, but what we need to be aware of is when it's no longer a good place for you. Uh, in your profession, doing your day to day when you are working on exhaustion or cynicism, or not bringing, you know, the self that you, you want to bring to your job or your work that you care about.

So, um, that's kind of also something I wanted to say. It, it really comes from a good place and, um, being someone who has felt burnout, um. I wanted to do great work. I wanted, I still wanted to [00:10:00] do, um, you know, pursue my career goals. Uh, but you know, there was just an imbalance,

Tara: Yeah, and that's another reason why I think it's, it's important to emphasize like this is not. Like you're not the problem when it comes to this. This is a lot of external circumstances impacting your work. There are some personal contributing, contributing factors I should say, um, you mentioned, like what are our tendencies?

Those kind of things. Those can certainly add to, but it, it's easy to get to the self-blame face, like right there too.

Lisa: Absolutely. And so, um, I like to focus in on what's good about the situation, even if it feels bad. It's, that's something, it's almost like a reframing I've always practiced no matter how bad [00:11:00] it feels. There's, there's something good, whether you're taking that step of asking someone for help, whether you're listening, you're looking out there podcasts, and you know, trying to figure out getting, getting curious about what it is you're experiencing.

Um, so there's always something to, to do. Uh, you know, and because I'm a coach, it's easy for me to say that because I help. Unstuck all the time. But, um, hopefully it's a good, uh, it's a good thing for the listeners. You're, you know, it feels stuck, but you know, there are ways of moving through it, um, and, and learning what you need to learn and increase your self knowledge.

Tara: Well, I wanna shift gears a little bit because I know you've worked inside corporate systems trying to improve wellbeing. Adding on top of that, like you having to deal with. Your own experiences and kind of feeling that grind yourself and [00:12:00] from that experience, like what has you, what have you seen to be maybe the contradiction that you see most often between how organizations talk about wellness and then how work gets done and like how, what the follow through looks like?

Lisa: There are so many. Yeah, there are so many factors that go into that and I think every workplace looks completely different. Um, and I've been doing work site wellness for 13 years and. Kind of, I feel like I've seen it all and I've seen this shift. Um, and so talking about wellness and seeing it play out in workplace, in, you know, work processes has changed.

Um, a lot of change happened during, you know, after COVID and the pandemic. Um, so I think it's still changing and we're still trying to figure out. [00:13:00] What does well good wellness, uh, work site wellness look like today with different, uh, workforces? But I would say overall the contradiction is that, you know, we can talk about wellbeing, we can provide, uh, benefits and resources for employees.

Uh, but wellness is behavioral. It's not a, to me, it's not a benefit. Wellbeing takes action. It takes mindset shift and so if, um, organizations are not equipped to have the discussion and, and talk about wellbeing and how that's what you want, if there isn't a plan to implement that, to make it tangible and real where you could jump into a meeting or go into an office and see wellbeing, it's, it's visual.

[00:14:00] So, uh, because it's behavioral, I hope that makes sense.

Tara: That

Lisa: Uh,

Tara: does.

Lisa: yeah. And so I've, I've seen great, um, great wellness on site, uh, work or even virtual wellbeing. Um, you can see it. I've seen organizations who have zero wellness. Like how do they do that? Uh, what, what kind of, what does support look like? Um, you know, especially in when there's so much change in the world and in workplace, how do you, man, how do you navigate change with your people?

So. Um, I also think that, um, wellbeing has to be part of the overall business strategy. It has to be baked in.

Tara: Yes.

Lisa: It's, it's very difficult to do it if it's not baked in. Uh, what happens, what I've seen is it seems disingenuous to employees. It [00:15:00] seems like it's something else or, um, you know, it's not important.

So I think, you know, when, when we're looking at, uh, work site wellbeing, um, you know, we can talk about it, but the demonstration needs to be there, um, because that's the way it actually gets. Implemented it's behavioral. Um, so, and it can be very simple, such as doing a wellbeing. Uh, round robin in a meeting with your team.

It, it can be something small like that. It can be, uh, you have a wellbeing question during, in, in your performance reviews. It can be something conversational or it can be something that is more, um, kind of onsite where we take, you know, walking meetings or, um, sit stand desks and so forth. I think, um, with every culture it's very different [00:16:00] and, uh, what works best is what your employees utilize.

So,

Tara: Yes.

Lisa: um, so there you go. It's hard to, it's hard to wrap it up in a nutshell for me, but yeah.

Tara: I think that's a good point about what you just said about like a good initiative or program is what folks are gonna use, and from my personal experience from the employer, employee side, I, I. I feel like the employee's voice was lacking in a lot of the decisions that were being made regarding, well, a lot of things, but regarding wellbeing specifically and, and it's interesting 'cause it's like maybe I don't want this perk, but if it's built into my one-on-one cadence where my boss just asks how I'm doing mentally, emotionally, physically, all that kind of stuff, then. That to me means more because it's built into that structure and, and culture. It's [00:17:00] you said, it's really ingrained into the fabric of the organization, whereas these ad hoc kind of one-off opportunities or one-off benefits. They may look nice on a benefit sheet, but they're not really appealing to the individual.

So I think that that's, that's where I, I could see a lot of opportunity for organizations is it's maybe instead of spending a lot of their efforts surveying their employees about the current status of their employee engagement situation, maybe they need to. Spend some time and have some focus groups with employees on like what's actually gonna move the needle and make a difference for their employees.

That, that to me shows a, a bigger sense of care than just amping up the benefits or whatever that might look like. I.

Lisa: And having the focus groups, it, I like to say that wellbeing is a, it's a constant [00:18:00] conversation. So talking about it in your organization is huge. That is amazing. Um, and so keep talking about it. I like to say get the reps in,

Tara: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, talking about it does actually help things m move the needle towards action.

It really does. Um, and so the more you talk about it, the more, um, and then the more that you do here and there and finding those small ways, the more it is, it, it becomes, it's an organic growth of, um, wellbeing that actually fits the culture rather than taking a co cookie cutter program and installing it.

Uh, so I've done both. I've, I've, and sometimes usually work site wellbeing is just multi-pronged, and that works, and that's the way I've always done work site wellness. And I think it's an art form to have a little bit of everything because. At the end of the day, you're dealing with a population that's going to be on different [00:19:00] levels of change.

If we're asking them to do with healthier things, well, you're gonna have a certain percentage of people who are already doing it. A certain percentage are like, no way. And then a percentage in the middle, um, who want to do it but don't know how to get it going or who are. Trying to do it, but not consistent.

And so at the end of the day, I think the talking and the showing and the modeling helps the consistency along the way. It's very similar to if you were trying to change something and build a new habit, talking about it, setting the goal, doing little actions, learning along the way. It's very similar.

Tara: Yeah. When you, me, you talk a lot about. Like coaching the per person, right. Not the position. So I think that's a good segue into my next question far as like what gets lost [00:20:00] when is only trying to fix their job, instead of really understanding back to what you said at the top of this episode, as far as like that self knowledge about like what their nervous system. Needs, what their values are, how their body is responding to what's going on, what is getting lost in that translation, when the focus is really on the job instead of the person.

Lisa: Um, I would love to just kind of, um, for. For that. Reflect on how my experience was finding your podcast. 'cause I think that that will help explain And um, so when I heard your podcast, it was one of them, I don't know which one 'cause I listened to them all. There was a question that said that you asked, uh, along the lines of [00:21:00] can you heal where you are?

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: I think that that is, it's a question that I never asked myself, but when that was asked in the podcast and I was asking it to myself, it, it, for whatever reason, it sparked something in me that I hadn't, um, thought about. I think where people get stuck is we don't have the vocabulary yet. We're in the burnout mode, and.

We don't have the vocabulary of calling it what, calling it what it is and what we're experiencing. Um, and so wherever you are, you, you're, you're there. So in other words, if you don't have that internal reflection and change, you're, you're likely going to, um. No matter what the position [00:22:00] is, you're going to be experiencing yourself the same way.

You're going to be doing the things the same, doing the same things over and over, and then in a different position. And a lot of the times you might be in a position that is not well matched for you. In the first place. Um, and so trying to force yourself to be something that you're not or wearing a mask and pretending, 'cause I've done this, pretending that this is fulfilling work and trying to be great at it, um, you know, it takes a lot of energy.

It takes a lot of energy to, to, to wear that mask and keep going. But for me, like I, I didn't have the vocabulary and so it really did take, you know, you and your podcast and, and really looking at, um, looking at my experience in a different lens. And I, you know, when you're in the thick of the weeds, you can't [00:23:00] see yourself.

Um, I like to think of, you know, being lost in the forest. You're, you're lost in the forest. You can't see beyond the trees. How do you, if you're stranded in the forest and lost, how do you get, how do you get help? Well, the logical thing is to. Go to a place where there's a clearing. So if a helicopter comes and like the search and rescue team is coming to to find you, they can find you in the clearing, but they can't find you in the thick forest.

So for me, warning, moving through burnout is about getting to a clearing space. And that includes the vocabulary, includes understanding how burnout affects your body, physiologically it, um, how it affects, you know, your mood and your career aspirations at the end of the day. And what makes you happy. Are you doing the things that bring you joy often?

So, um, all of those things, um, kind of, you know, I [00:24:00] under, it's so hard though. It is so hard to do on your own, like I said. So, um. I think it's just really important to continue to work on yourself as a person. Um, increase your self knowledge, um, and the position comes. I, I, I love job crafting, and I'm sure you have a podcast on that, but, um, I think wherever you go, there you are.

So, um, it's important to continue to grow yourself and, and stretch yourself.

Tara: Yeah, that analogy with the forest, that's a really good one. I like that one. Um, I always use like the book analogy of like. a book's sitting flat on your face, you can't see the words, you can't read the words, but you need a moment of like holding the book. Sometimes as I get older, you need to hold it a little further away to see the words, but you know, um, you need some distance from that.

So, but I really like that for imagery too. And I think like [00:25:00] many high achievers, and I say this coming from my own experience, are kind of waiting for. The crisis to hit before they try to find the clearing. So if they're in that forest, they're waiting for maybe the downpour that's about to come, you know, whatever, if we're gonna stick with that analogy.

But they're waiting for the big shoe to drop to slow down instead of trying to get ahead of it and try to get to the clearing ahead of time. So. Just with your knowledge and your experience, like what signals do you wish people would take seriously within their BO body? I know you mentioned like emotions and all that kind of stuff and responses, but like what do you wish people would take seriously before their body kind of forces the issue for them?

Lisa: Yeah, I, I really think that blood pressure is number one. Um, and it's not to get. I don't want people [00:26:00] to get anxious about, you know, tracking and so forth. But that is, stress is a silent killer. And it, and it manifests in, in things like blood pressure, and that's something that people can do in their homes.

It's accessible. So, um, I wanna throw that out there. Um, but also, you know, the way you work, uh, have, um, some, you know. Get some awareness going in the moment and some mindfulness. Are you holding your breath? That for me physiologically was something like, why am I holding my breath so

Tara: Yes.

Lisa: This meeting because I felt like the shoe's gonna drop.

And, and it is something that if you can again name it, you can tame it. If you're aware of it, you can do something about it, uh, and shift. And you have so many great tactics for, um, our listeners to implement in those cases. Um. Your, your body will let [00:27:00] you know, I carry it, I carry it in my shoulders and I carry it in my stomach.

All of that tension and balled up do I feel physically exhausted after work? If, even if I've been sitting most of the day, that that exhaustion feeling is definitely, uh, a sign. So those are the little things. The big sign for me though was. My husband saying something,

Tara: Yep.

Lisa: people will start to notice something.

The people who love you and see you every day, they will start to notice something and they will say something. Maybe at work, people might not say anything, but my family might, you know, my family will tell me, Hey, you're not yourself. Is everything okay? When they ask me, is everything okay? It's different than if it came from a coworker or a leader.

Um, so I think again, the, you know, checking in with the [00:28:00] people that, um, love you and care about you and asking them to check in on you is, is also important. Um, that those were, those are just a couple of signs that I think are important.

Tara: Yeah, you bring up your husband. My husband too, like, I mean, I think I've told this story probably a thousand times, but like he's literally the reason why I quit my job because he was like, you can't keep going like this. And I don't know if I've ever shared this. And he's probably gonna like. Kill me for saying this, but um, he was like, you are mean. you have gotten mean. And I, reflecting back, I was like, oh yeah. I was like real mean. Thank goodness he is the person and human that he is and could put up with that because I was not myself in any way, shape or form. So irritability for me is like red alert, we're crossing over danger zone. Um. the breathing. [00:29:00] I, I too, well, I mean, I get migraines all the time, but like if my migraines started increasing, that's when I kind of realized, oh, okay. Or I call it my spontaneous combustion of tears,

Lisa: Cool.

Tara: matter what emotion came, it could have been a good emotion, could have been a bad one, but I was gonna emote through my eyeballs and it was gonna be intense. And I couldn't control it. And that was usually like a, Hmm. I can't regulate my emotions like I used to. What's going on?

Lisa: Love crying.

Tara: Yeah.

Lisa: I think like for me, it works to just cry it out. Like, and I tell my husband I'll be, I'll be good in like two minutes. Everything's fine. I'm be good in like two minutes. I always feel better. Almost like exercise. I after exercise, I always feel better.

Tara: Yeah. All right. Well, I do wanna ask about your Ignite framework a little [00:30:00] bit. If you can explain some of that. I know it's kind of, you built it to help folks. Kind of build something a little bit more sustainable instead of reactive. And so if you wanna about that a little bit and just how you see it helping our listeners and anyone that might be relating to a lot of what we're saying today.

Lisa: Yeah, I'd love to. The Ignite Framework was kind of my culmination of. Like thousands of hours of coaching and helping like hundreds of people over like 13 plus years. And something that I've constantly seen is when you know someone wants to either lose weight or change the way they're eating and they'll, they'll set the goal and then they'll go.

And, you know, if I was coaching someone to change behavior and, and implement new, um, like healthy behaviors, that, that's not where I'd start. And, you know, I, I looked at apps, I looked at a [00:31:00] lot of, you know, programs and they skipped this huge, you know, foundational part of change. And, and that's really about like, you start with.

A wellness vision and you get your, you extract values, identify your values, identify some, um, some strengths. You, you gather all of this kind of information about yourself to help guide you and create a roadmap of what to do from there. And, uh, when you do it that way, um, you have a lot more sustainability with your goals.

It's super flexible with goals. So sometimes a client would be like, well, I didn't hit my goal this week, but I did this other thing. I did it this way, but I didn't hit my goal. And so when you go back to, well, is it, is the new thing that you, um, started doing, is that going towards your, your wellness vision because.

That's great. You fi [00:32:00] you figured out a new way to do that. So, um, the Ignite framework is really about five, like crucial steps or phases, if you will. Um, that can, that are just the building blocks of building a strong foundation before. You actually go and take action and do goal setting. So it's really just five sections of first getting clear on what your wellness vision is.

Where do you wanna be, who do you wanna be, what do you want your life to look like going forward? Um, getting clear and and alignment on your core values. And that becomes really your compass for decision making and really understanding what it looks like when you're aligning your, with your values and what it doesn't look like.

Um, and then prioritizing, uh, your first steps and designing it and not taking them yet, but designing what that would look like. And then activating your strengths. How will you utilize your strengths in order to take these actions? Um. And, uh, I use the VIA [00:33:00] survey, the Via character strength survey, which is free, it's online.

Millions of people have used it all, um, across the world. Um, and it's really great and, uh, evidence-based and then really resilient. How will you manage setbacks? So you're now creating a plan before you, uh, take steps and how you'll manage setbacks and keep going. Um, and sometimes, you know, how will you build accountability for yourself in a.

Positive, healthy way. So that's the Ignite framework. Uh, and, uh, I've put it in, I'm redesigning the workbook, but I'm putting it in a workbook, um, that, yeah, that anyone can grab on my website.

Tara: That's awesome. like that. And I'm a strengths based person, so I love that it's very strengths focused. I also use the VIA character strengths, so, um, I'll give a. one on that as a, as a free resource. Um, and I [00:34:00] can link it in the show notes too for folks so access it. But yeah, that's awesome. Can't wait for the workbook to come out and, uh, provide it to folks. 'cause I think that, that, that's such a, a great foundation for actually making progress on. Goals and it's, you said it so perfectly, like it's a step that we always skip. Like we jump straight to the goal. 'cause the goal is the shiny thing that we wanna work towards, and the work ahead of it is not always easy or fun, but it's very critical and crucial to your success.

So that's really cool. Well, I know we are wrapping up, so I have one more question for you, Lisa, and that is that this podcast, as you know, 'cause you listen to it, is all about balanced living with badass results. And so I wanna know from your perspective, how do you define being a balanced badass in your own life?

Lisa: Balance. Badass to me [00:35:00] is just really celebrating and honoring your strengths and what makes you, you. Because there's only one of you and we need you. We need your perspective, we need your talent. I do. And in a balanced way. So to me that means that how it, it's gotta work for me, not just a job or, and everybody else.

Tara: I love that. Well, I really appreciate this conversation, Lisa. It has been a pleasure having you on the show. for folks listening, what I hope that you heard beyond the information and the great resources that Lisa shared is the, is the reminder that you're not alone in this process. And asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness, and to listen to your body.

'cause your body's giving you information. So when something feels off, it's not a [00:36:00] failure of anything that you are doing. It's feedback and you can act on that feedback. So I hope that you got that from this experience. Now, Lisa, if folks wanted to connect with you after listening to this episode, where can they find you?

Lisa: You can, uh, connect with me on my website. It's priority self.com. Um, and I'm also on Instagram. It's, uh, at Lisa, priority Self Coach. Um, so either way,

Tara: Some.

Lisa: love to hear from you.

Tara: Yes, I will add all those links to the show notes so folks can connect. And if this op episode gave you language, like Lisa said, sometimes we just need the language for something that we've been feeling. Um, I'm gonna consider that a win if, if we were able to do that today. So Lisa, thanks again for joining me.

And folks, thank you for listening. I'll see you next time in the next episode.